Disillusioned JW

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Posts by Disillusioned JW

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  773

  Breaking News: Anthony Morris III no longer serving on the Governing Body

  by WingCommander in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this has been announced on the jw's official website, in the "jw news" section.

  this is not a joke.

  anthony moron da turd is out as a gluttonous body member!

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  Disillusioned JW

  vienne, Raymond Franz wrote that the Insight book is a minor revision of the Aid book. His long article about Bible chronology is in the Insight book (at least in the First Edition; I have the hardcover First Edition), but with a different chart and with small changes to the text. The WT's website now even has the Aid book available for reading online. vienne, please list some specific articles which are in the Aid book but not in the Insight book. Before I accept the claim that Franz's Aid book articles are not in the Insight book, I must see specific examples of such.
  
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Paragraph 8 of page 154 of the First Edition of the You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth book (copyright 1982) says the following. "Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon." That quote is from personal copy of the book. I also saw those words in a copy of the book at the store I was at yesterday (but I noticed that the book had one illustration different from my copy; the one I saw at the store had a picture [of a goat's head?] on a nightstand [on page 244?]; that illustration also had a black man in it, unlike the one in my book). I was baptized before that book came out (I had studied the Truth book).

  By the way, today I noticed that the concordance (index of Bible words) in the 2013 NWT is about only one fourth of the number of pages of the 1984 NWT regular edition. That is unfortunate, but the 2013 edition does include a "Glossary of Bible Terms".
  
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  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

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  Disillusioned JW

  According to the WT the forbidden fruit was not poisonous and that if Adam and Eve had remained faithful then God likely eventually would have left them that fruit.
  
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Perhaps some think that God, an angel, or some other spirit directed matters to cause me to find and obtain the books.
  
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

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  2. 
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  Disillusioned JW

  JeffT I notice that you wrote that the WT taught the "... final war between Good and Evil would take place in 1975." Do you mean that was stated in WT literature? If so, please state the specific sources so I can read them. Or, was it stated only vocally, such as in talks in JW conventions and JW assemblies, and in special talks in the kingdom halls?

  Interestingly while at a thrift store I found Awake! bound volumes for the years of 1966, 1968, and 1969. In one of those volumes I noticed an article which practically explicitly said the end would come in 1975. I think that is the most explicit statement I've seen in WT about 1975 being the year of the end. I think I saw it in the volume for 1966 (but I don't know which article it is in). An article in the volume for the year 1968 (or 1969?) was somewhat less explicit, but it was still very bold about 1975. I already had at home Awake! volumes for those years (but while at the store I was sure I had them) and continue to have them, but for some reason the content of the volumes that I found at the store didn't look familiar to me (except maybe for one article). I thus bought those specific volumes I found at the store.

  Fisherman, I noticed you stated that the angels direct the preaching work and that you mentioned belief in the power of prayer, and I understand why you believe such. I am also aware of what is called "New Thought" and it's idea of "The Law of Attraction". In a way it is a similar idea to prayer. That so-called law is something I wonder about because of certain of experiences I have. The following recent example illustrates such.
  

  From last Thursday through last Friday I was aware that I have the strong desire to obtain a copy of multiple WT books which I used to own. Namely, Babylon The Great Has Fallen, Then Is Finished the Mystery of God (which is not available on WT Library CD and not on the Wt's JW website), The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah, Paradise Restored To Mankind by Theocracy, and The Harp of God. Besides those 5 specific books, in wanted to obtain multiple books by Rutherford (beside The Harp of God"). I wanted to obtain the 5 specific books because I have come to miss them and find it interesting to read certain things in them (including abandoned ideas in them which I think are strange, including ones I could quote on this site to try to get JWs to question their religion; but also ideas which make sense to me and are informative). Another reason why I wanted those books, and especially also the books by Rutherford, is because some people on this site say that the WT urged JWs to part with old WT books so that the WT can hide the WT's past flawed statements from people. Supposedly the WT (including working through elders) wants the books to be rounded up so they can be destroyed, in order to keep believing JWs from reading them. I don't want the WT to have that power and I don't want all of those old WT books (which in my mind expose flawed past beliefs of the WT) to be destroyed (while the WT continues to exist). Also, a few days ago I started wanting a copy of the 2013 NWT 'silver sword' edition. I thus I used the concept of 'the Law of Attraction" to bring those books to the thrift store I visit on occasion, so I could buy them there cheaply (even though I get a free band new one by entering a kingdom hall).

  I visualized in my mind the books I wanted to find at the store in a future visit. I also waited a few days before going to the store, in order to give the universe time to arrange people to bring their unwanted copies of those books to the store and for the store to get them ready for sale in the shopping area. Last Saturday (yesterday) early in the day I obtained a strong urge to go to that store to see if the books were there (or arrive there later that day). I had a strong feeling that I needed to get to the store early that morning, for I felt (intuitively) there was a high likelihood the books would be there. Past experiences with me wanting to find specific books (and also electronics) at the store, is that when I had such a strong feeling that I must go to the store to find such, about 50% or 33% of the time the specific hard to find items I wanted were there! I thus went to the store.

  At that store hundreds of books are often brought out to the sale area during the day but rarely any WT books by Rutherford). I arrived about when the store opened but no books were present. I later left to get food to eat. When I returned books were present including old WT books including the bound volumes I mentioned. But I didn't see any of the books I wanted, except for a very good condition copy of the 2013 NWT 'silver sword' (which was left in an abandoned shopping cart). I later put that Bible in my cart. When I had arrived (after getting food) the books in the shopping area were in the process of being removed from the shopping area, to be replaced with other items. I wondered if the old books I had wanted were buried under the other books which were being taking away, before I could search thoroughly for find them. I decided to wait to see if my books would be brought out later. Later many more books were brought out - including 4 of the 5 remaining specific books I wanted, plus the following books by Rutherford: Creation, Preparation, and Volume 2 of Vindication! I was astounded! I placed all of those books in my cart. There were also "You May Survive Armageddon into God's New World" and "Your Name Be Sanctified". I also put those books in my cart. There was also the 1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses and I put it in my cart (since it has a history of the WT organization and has a good resale price online), even though I own the one I obtained from my former kingdom hall in 1975. There were also a number of other old WT books (mostly ones which I already own, plus some Watchtower bound volumes which I used to own) which I did not put in my cart for purchasing.

  But I still hadn't found the Then Is Finished the Mystery of God book - one of the specific books I really wanted. I remained at the store for hours, all the way to closing time! I was determined to wait to see if more books would be brought and to see if any of those were ones I wanted. More books were later brought out - including the Then Is Finished the Mystery of God book! Wow! I put it in my cart.

  Another book I found was the book called The Science of Getting Rich, which is a New Thought book (including the idea of the Law of Attraction) by Wattles. That copy was two books in one, consisting of the Original Text and of the Updated Version which is "Revised For the 21st Century". I thought that it's presence there in the store that day along with the WT books which found as a result of using the Law of Attraction was a sign that I should buy that book. I thus put in my cart.

  I also found and added to my cart the following books, My Inventions and other Writings & Lectures (by Nikola Tesla), an autobiography by Albert Einstein, a biography by Isaacson about Einstein, Secrets for Profiting in Bull and Bear Markets (by Stan Weinstein), and a DVD of Al Gore's documentary called "An Inconvenient Truth".

  During the last hour that the store was open there was a very long checkout line. At one point in that line while I was standing near some of the books I noticed one Rutherford book which I hadn't seen earlier that day in the store (a shopper probably removed it from his/her cart). It is the book called Deliverance! and I put it in my cart even though I already a copy of that book at my home.

  I purchased each of the above mentioned books which put into my cart.

  It are experiences of mine like that mentioned above which make wonder if the Law of Attraction is true. To me, from an atheistic naturalist point of view it can only be true if everyone (including plants and nonhuman animals) and everything in the universe is connected together in some way as one whole. Perhaps quantum entanglement and the fabric of the universe together are such a connection. The idea is also that the universe is one. I have been thinking of that concept off and on for several years. Soon after I brought home the book by Wattles I noticed that it's Preface by Wattles says the following.

  "The monistic theory of the universe, the theory that One is All and that All is One; that one Substance manifests itself as the seeming many elements of the material world, is of Hindu origin and has been gradually winning its way into the thought of the western world for two hundred years." [Note: the book was first published in 1910.] That agrees with my idea of the naturalistic explanation I stated in the prior paragraph. However, I already have been owning for years another edition of Wattles' book (and other books about the Law of Attraction and The Secret) and thus I had read that idea before, but I had forgotten it was a part of Wattles' idea.
  
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Disillusioned JW

  Correction: In my prior post, by "... those on side of the street ..." I meant "... those on one side of the street ...".
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  49

  Some thoughts on the message of doom

  by JeffT in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

  the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

  i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Fisherman, please elaborate your concept of the angels directing you to the homes of people who might respond. Do you perceive yourself as getting a mental impression from angels to go to specific homes, instead of all of the ones that were allotted to you in field service (such as those on side of the street) pertaining to the territory card ?
  
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  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

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  Disillusioned JW

  In answer to the hypothetical question of this topic thread, my answer is "Who knows? There is no way for any living human to know for certain (if hypothetically the human dead are conscious)." That is because the Bible teaches multiple views of the state of the dead and numerous other religions have other views, and even if one of those views is correct (about the dead being conscious) there is no way to determine which of those views is correct. There is even the view of reincarnation, including the idea of being reincarnated as a nonhuman animal, or a plant, or something else. [Granted there are reports of near death experiences in which people think they experienced an afterlife. There also people who think they recall having one or more past lives. And, there are people who think they received a message from a spirit realm. But there is no conclusive proof that a spirit being has contacted anyone, nor that any spirit realm even exists.]

  Since even if dead humans are conscious in some form, no human can prove what kind of existence such formerly living humans have. Therefore, it is best not dwell on it to much, other than attempt to live a good moral and ethic life which respects life (at least sentient life). If hypothetically there is an afterlife for humans, hopefully deceased humans won't be punished for eating animals, or for intentionally killing those animals which are considered pests in human habitations and in crop fields.

  Correction of my prior post: Where I wrote ".... the dead but actually impossible to do so.' ... 'A new theology developed ..." I should have wrote ".... the dead but actually impossible to do so. A new theology developed ...".
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  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

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  Disillusioned JW

  Thanks peacefulpete for what you said about John 3:13 including a metaphor.
  

  Readers, in agreement with Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 (NKJV), Psalms 146:4 (which is not a part of wisdom literature) says the following.

  "His spirit departs, he returns to his earth;
  In that very day his plans perish."

  In a post in a different topic thread I said in part the following.

  'The Bible thus expresses a range of views of what happens to humans after their bodies die, and in regards to whether humans have an immortal component or not. Furthermore, when it says or suggests there is an immortal component, it also states competing views of whether it is conscious or not. These observations are further mentioned in another book I own, one called THE OXFORD COMPANION TO THE BIBLE, Edited by Metzger and Coogan. This book is copyright 1993. Note some of what it says, in the following.
  
  The entry of "Afterlife and Immortality" "consists of two articles on views of life and death within the historical communities of Ancient Israel and Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity." Some of things said in the first article of that entry say the following.
  
  'Israelite views of the afterlife underwent substantial changes during the first millennium BCE, as concepts popular during the preexlic period eventually came to be rejected by the religious leadership of the exilic and postexilic communities, and new theological stances replaced them. ...
  
  Because many elements of preexilic beliefs and practices concerning the dead were eventually repudiated, the Hebrew Bible hardly discusses preexilic concepts at all ....
  
  Like all cultures in the ancient Near East, the Israelites believed that persons continued to exist after *death. It was thought that following death, one's spirit went down to a land below the earth, most often called Sheol, but sometimes merely "Earth," or "the Pit (see hell). In the preexilic period, there was no notion of a judgment of the dead based on their actions during life, nor is there any evidence for a belief that the righteous dead go to live in God's presence. ...
  
  The exact relationship between the body of a dead person and the spirit that lived on in Sheol is unclear, since the Bible does not discuss this issue. ... during the late eighth and seventh centuries' [BCE] there were 'laws against necromancy' which 'assume not that it was impossible to summon the dead from Sheol but that it was inappropriate. ...
  
  During the exile, when the "Yahweh alone" party finally came to control the religious leadership of Judah, a further step was taken', and several texts from that period 'suggest that it is not only improper to consult the dead but actually impossible to do so.' [Note that the WT also teaches that only Yahweh is God (at least in the full sense) and it teaches that it is both improper and impossible to consult the dead - except possibly those they consider to be resurrected anointed JWs in heaven.] 'A new theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.' [This is what the WT teaches, except they don't say it is a new biblical theory, and furthermore they teach the hope of a resurrection.]
  
  The second article in the entry describes how the Jews, "owing to the widespread influence of the platonic idea of the immortality of the soul (see Human Person)" came to believe in immortality and resurrection and that there would be "reward or punishment" for those who die, and that those ideas were adopted by Christianity. That article also says that such ideas created a tension between ideas both in Judaism and in Christianity.
  
  The entry/article called "Human Person" says the following.
  
  "The Hebrew word for the human being is nepeš, which among its wide range of meanings connotes both flesh and soul as inseparable components of a person." But how [can] they be viewed as inseparable, since later on the article says the following. "At death, the person's flesh dies, and the soul dwells in Sheol, a shadowy place for the dead (see Afterlife and Immortality; Hell)." Perhaps the explanation lies in the next two sentences of the article which say the following. "There is no notion in what may be called orthodox Israelite religion of a separate existence for the soul after death. Death is accepted as a natural part of the life cycle, but it is not welcomed, for the person who dies loses his or her being." After referring to Psalms 30:9 the paragraph later by says the following. "Death is thus perceived to be the end of all sentient life. [ " ]
  
  Later the article says the following. "In the New Testament, the still prominent idea of bodily resurrection (see especially the resurrection narratives in the Gospels and also 1 Cor. 15) implies that the soul and body are inseparable, but the notion of a human being composed of a separate soul and body slowly gains ascendancy."
  
  Note that parts of the Bible teach that humans do have an immortal soul, but that some of those parts teach the soul of the human dead is unconscious whereas some other verses teach that is conscious. Furthermore, note that other parts of the Bible teach that humans do not have an immortal soul at all.
  
  The above content to me is enormous further proof that the Bible's theological teachings are not the word of God, but merely human ideas of theology, and that such human ideas evolved over the centuries. The Bible are the words (and ideas) of humans (including conflicting views between various human writers of the Bible, not just pertaining to the topics mentioned above) and not the Word of God. Since the Bible is not the word of God, of any god, humans should not feel obligated by the Bible to believe anything the Bible teaches. People thus should feel free to decide which teachings of the Bible, if any, are correct - just as we would do for any nonreligious secular writing or teaching. I encourage believers in the Bible to question what the Bible teaches.'

  Everything above in this post, except for the first paragraph of this post, is a copy of part of what posted in an earlier post in a different topic thread (plus some corrections in brackets).

  In addition to what I quoted from the Oxford book in that earlier post of mine, the Oxford book (on page 16) also says the following (which includes parts of what I quoted earlier).

  "Necromancy was particularly opposed by the religious group that supported the worship of Yahweh alone. The popular views of afterlife and the dead came under increasing attack during the late eighth and seventh centuries. The laws against necromancy date to this period, and a number of outright attacks and satires on the older ideas about the nature of existence in Sheol appear in the literature of this time (e.g., Isa. 8.19-22; 14.9-11).

  ... These laws apparently did not have the desired effect on the Judean population." The next three sentences of the article says the following (which I partially quoted in my earlier article). 'During the exile, when the "Yahweh alone" party finally came to control the religious leadership of Judah, a further step was taken. Several texts appearing to date from the exile and postexilic periods suggest that it is not only improper to consult the dead but actually impossible to do so.' ... 'A new theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.'

  That quote from the scholarly Oxford book agrees completely with what I said in an earlier post in this topic thread. Notice that it says when there came to be Jewish religious leaders who preached that "Yahweh alone" should be worshiped that 'theology developed that argued there is no conscious existence in Sheol at all. At death all contact with the world, and even with God, comes to an end.' That view was apparently started by the "Yahweh alone" group of religious leaders. The WT, which stresses worship of only Yahweh/Jehovah, also says that the dead are completely unconscious. The WT even says the ones who have died are completely dead - except for those whom they say have experienced a resurrection to life in heaven.

  Note the scholarly book by Oxford indicates that the "Yahweh alone" religious leaders (ones who supported worship of Yahweh alone) wanted people to stop making efforts to contact to dead, and that after those efforts (which consisted of laws that are stated in the books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus) failed, a new theology was developed which said that the dead are completely unconscious. It thus appears that the later Jewish religious teaching (apparently by the "Yahweh alone" religious leaders) was created to convince Jews to no longer attempt to communicate with the dead.
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  60

  What Will JW's Do If They Find Themselves Still Conscious after Death?

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  we all know that despite many scriptures to the contrary, jw's believe that when they die, their consciousness will cease.

  my question is this: what will be the likely reaction of jw's if they find themselves conscious after death?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Disillusioned JW

  I agree that according to John 3:13 the way to resurrection to life in heaven only became available till after the resurrection (alleged) of Jesus. The textual context of the verse is of before Jesus died and went to heaven (allegedly went to heaven), thus the text gives the impression that Jesus said the Son of Man ascended to heaven before Jesus was born (namely, allegedly before the Son of Man descended to be born as Jesus as a human). [Perhaps that verse is an anachronistic comment by the writer of the gospel, and thus that the writer should have used different wording to fit the temporal context of the rest of his gospel account.] But for many years as a JW and as an inactive JW (and ex-JW) the part, which seemingly is about the Son of Man having ascended before he descended, was very puzzling to me. That is because me, when I had thought of the ascension of Jesus to heaven, I thought that it (according to the Bible) only happened after Jesus became resurrected (according to the Bible). I did not notice any verses in the Bible which spoke of Jesus (or a divine Son of Man) being on Earth prior to Jesus being conceived in the womb of Mary (according to the Bible).
  

  Granted the WT teaches that some of the OT statements about Jehovah coming down to Earth were of Jesus coming to Earth as the representative of Jehovah. Likewise the WT teaches that some of the OT statements about the angel of Jehovah coming down to Earth were of Jesus coming to Earth as the representative of Jehovah. But for many years I never interpreted the verse in John 3:13 being about that, since the OT does not state that Jesus descended (such as having descended in BCE times) and it does not state that the Son of Man descended. But I now think that some 1st century Christians (and maybe some Jews living before the 1st century CE, ones who contemplated the arrival of the Messiah) might have interpreted parts of the OT mentions of YHWH coming down to Earth as being about a divine being who was not Yahweh in the sense of God the Father. I noticed that in some of the Psalms it is hard to identify which being is said to be speaking in a given verse; it seems like the identity of the 'speaker' changes from one verse to another in the same Psalm, without the change being explicitly stated/named in the Psalm. That makes such Psalms confusing to me. [I later learned that sometimes one of the 'speakers' might be a human chorus, or a human king sitting on 'David's throne'.] Some of those Psalms seem to be partly about the Messiah and partly about YHWH God. Maybe that is how the idea got started. I can also see how readers could have interpreted those verses as indicating that there are two divine persons called YHWH, and thus get a binitarian idea or a trinitarian idea.